earlier this year, he had trouble throwing the fastball 85mph and was throwing consistently low 80's coming out of spring training and into the season. which imo, is a significant difference with what he has to offer right now. do the research yourself if you like, but i am done discussing it with someone who already has their mind made up. in the previous thread on this subject, there was plenty of evidence offered to support the notion that Zito was not the command/control pitcher you made him out to be nor was he similar to Maddux or Rueter. i don't see really where else we can go from here. it's not going to be a fruitful discussion when there is a fundamental difference of opinion with respect to some of the basic facts.

i've got no problem with you personally, but i am surely going to comment when someone's observations contradict my own. i'm sorry if this is "annoying" to you or if my takes are perceived as "negative". when a team has been sub-.500 for 3.5 consecutive years, i don't think it's unusual for "what's wrong" to be a central theme in these discussions.

i actually enjoy reading your posts and don't think our opinions are really that divergent. it's nice that there is now a core group of posters here with some sense of perspective and perhaps we are getting a bit too caught up in the minutiae.